Minutes: Lutheran-Episcopal Coordinating Committee

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June 4-5, 2001
Chase Suites Hotel Salt Lake City, Utah

The following persons were present for all or part of the meeting:

Representatives of The Episcopal Church: the Very Rev. Donald Brown, the Rev. Grant Abbott, the Rt. Rev. Leopold Frade, the Rev. Dr. Alfred Moss, Ms. Emily Perow, Ms. Midge Roof, the Rt. Rev. Carolyn Tanner-Irish, and the Rt. Rev. C. Christopher Epting (staff).
Representatives of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America: the Rev. Dr. Duane Larson (co-chair ), Ms. Terry Bowes, the Rev. Nancy Curtis, Bishop Andrea DeGroot-Nesdahl, the Rev. Gregory Villalon, the Rev. Norman Wahl, Bishop Ronald Warren, the Rev. Dr. Randall R. Lee ( staff), the Rev. Dr. Daniel Martensen (consultant).
Guests: Ms. Susanne Krull, Valdez, Alaska; Mr. Bergen Bull, Sun River, Oregon; Ms. Robinae Disque, Hoepner, Oregon; and the Rev. Courtney Schucker and Mr. Donald Poeltzer of Price, Utah.
The Very Rev. Donald Brown, co-chair of the Lutheran-Episcopal Coordinating Committee called the second meeting of the Committee to order at 9:32 a.m. on Monday, June 4, 2001, in the meeting room of the Chase Suites Hotel in Salt Lake City, Utah. He called upon the Rt. Rev. Carolyn Irish, Episcopal Bishop of Utah and a member of the committee, who welcomed the committee to Salt Lake City.

Appointment of the Secretary Pro Tempore
By agreement of the committee, the Rev. Randall R. Lee, staff from the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, was appointed to serve as secretary pro tempore.

Devotions
The Rt. Rev. C. Christopher Epting, newly-appointed deputy for ecumenical affairs of The Episcopal Church, led Morning Prayer from the Book of Common Prayer.

Updates
Chair Brown called upon each member of the committee to provide on update on personal events in their lives.

Special Order of the Day
Chair Brown recognized several guests from Province VIII of The Episcopal Church who are involved in Lutheran-Episcopal joint ministries. The guests were: Ms. Suzanne Krull, who reported on a joint ministry in Valdez, Alaska, that dates from the late 1970s, as well as other cooperative programs throughout Alaska; Mr. Bergen Bull of Sun River, Oregon, who reported on the Sun River Christian Fellowship, a congregation served by an Episcopal priest that is composed primarily of Lutherans and Episcopalians, but also includes Methodists and Baptists; Ms. Robinae Disque of Hoepner, Oregon, which serves as the base of a four-point parish served by one Lutheran pastor; and the Rev. Courtney Schucker and Mr. Donald Poeltzer of Price, Utah, where Ascension St. Matthew’s Church, a joint fellowship of Lutherans and Episcopalians, now served by an Episcopal priest, who is a former Lutheran. General discussion of these innovative ministries ensued and continued over the lunch hour.

The Lutheran-Episcopal Coordinating Committee recessed at 1:13 p.m. and reconvened at 2:04 p.m. under the chairmanship of the Rev. Dr. Duane Larson.

Approval of the Minutes
The minutes of the meeting of January 8-9, 2001, were approved as presented, with minor alterations, and with thanks to Bishop Andrea DeGroot-Nesdahl for their preparation.

Web site Update
Concern was expressed to have the Web site developed with the charter and list of committee members as a sub-page of the ecumenical pages of the respective churchbodies. Encouragement was given to the church staffs to seek other alternatives to achieve the goal of having the Web page up by the end of July. The Rev. Gregory Villalon urged that staff develop the content for the page so its design can be facilitated.

Joint memorandum to ELCA and ECUSA National staffs
Chair Larson reviewed the request of the committee to receive reports on cooperative ministries that are developing as a result of the declaration of full communion. The collection of stories is occurring in both churches and will be shared with the members of the committee. Various examples of the units of the two churches meeting together in cooperative ventures, as well as contacts on the international level between the two traditions, were cited. Bishop Leo Frade urged that ministry among immigrants needs to be coordinated between the two churches. The Rev. Grant Abbott expressed thanks to staff for the work in these multi-faceted areas. The Rev. Nancy Curtis raised a question about communicating decisions of the two churches with the members of the committee. The request was made to keep the committee as updated as possible.

Progress on Electronic Communication Network
The Rev. Nancy Curtis called attention to the need to have correct e-mail addresses in order to make possible the communication capabilities of the committee as accurately as possible. Updates were gathered and some discussion on the issue was conducted.

Report on Other Joint Coordinating Committee Models and Actions
The Rev. Randall R. Lee introduced the report on the "Organization of the Lutheran-Reformed Coordinating Committee," a report given to all four church body members of the Lutheran-Reformed relationship of full communion. The Rev. Daniel F. Martensen reported that an international theological conference is planned for later this summer to continue the theological conversation between the two communions. The other issue for both communions, he said, is whether, in light of all the full communion agreements, Lutherans and Anglicans are consistent in their conversations with various partners. Bishop Christopher Epting said the Inter-Anglican Standing Committee on Ecumenical Relations, newly formed at Lambeth ‘98, will hold its second meeting later this year in Cape Town, South Afirca, for the purpose of ascertaining whether there is internal consistency in the various dialogues in which the Anglican Communion is involved.

Discussion: The Unique Ecclesial Cultures of the Two Denominations
Chair Larson introduced the discussion on the uniqueness of the two ecclesial bodies in their decision-making process. He went on to say that he came away from the meeting of February 26, 2001, at the Lutheran Center in Chicago aware that the ELCA uses constitutional language to affect changes while the Episcopal Church speaks in terms of canon, which can be interpreted more broadly than is the case for ELCA constitutional language. "If we could do something from the Episcopal perspective without canon, all the better, whereas Lutherans will not do anything until there is the constitutional language to make it happen." Bishop Irish said Episcopalians are often asked to affirm something, a more elastic way of doing things.

The concrete example of this discussion was the so-called matter of "planned exceptions" to ordination by a bishop in the ELCA. The Rev. Grant Abbott said that sometimes people need freedom to live into things, and while the preference would be that the ELCA not take the step it may be necessary for long-term success of the full communion agreement. Bishop Andrea DeGroot-Nesdahl said that the ELCA Church Council asked for a response from Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold and so that his response, while it may seem harsh, reflects the culture of The Episcopal Church. Bishop Leo Frade said that there is a perception that this is a changing of the rules. Bishop C. Christopher Epting said Episcopalians were aware that there would be some "non-compliance" but they would proceed with such situations while the ELCA cannot proceed without constitutional provisions making such situations possible to entertain. He said The Episcopal Church attempts not to put things into canonical form in order to allow for this kind of flexibility. The Very Rev. Donald Brown said this became concretized for him on a tour of the Lutheran Center when he encountered the offices of the legal department. The Rev. Grant Abbott said certain dioceses are facing the issue in relation to the ordination of practicing gays and lesbians because often the rules preventing this are not contained in the canons. Bishop C. Christopher Epting said there is certainly truth to the fact that The Episcopal Church is a confederation of dioceses. The Rev. Norman Wahl said that the ELCA is a very diverse church, consisting of several "moving targets" on how questions of order are resolved. Bishop Ronald Warren pointed to an example of this ambiguity in his synod.

Ms. Midge Roof commented that the letter of Presiding Bishop Griswold really contained the only language that is possible at this point in time. The unilateral action of the ELCA Conference of Bishops, for example, is hurtful to an ecumenical relationship, she said. The Rev. Norman Wahl said the struggle is balancing the ecumenical relationship with the internal relationships within the ELCA. Ms. Terry Bowes said that is why the web site is crucial before the 2001 Churchwide Assembly, in order to place the charter of this committee into the proper context. "We are open to a whole series of definition, none of which are correct," she said. People around this table should not be attacked by other members of their own church body. Bishop Carolyn Tanner-Irish said that actions of General Convention presumes that a democratic body speaks on behalf the church. Chair Larson said this is not an intramural issue, and that no matter what transpires at the Churchwide Assembly, the question for this committee is how to maintain enthusiasm for both churches. The Rev. Grant Abbott said, "we need to tell the stories, such as we heard this morning, because that will overcome some of the concerns."

Bishop Andrea DeGroot-Nesdahl said the people opposed to the agreement would not argue about the stories heard this morning, but the mandatory nature of ordination seems out of step with mission. The Rev. Grant Abbott said that the stories that concerned relationships prior to the agreement are analogous to people living together before marriage, and the full communion agreement now makes it "legal." Fr. Abbott said these relationships now have the full blessing of the church. Bishop Tanner-Irish said no, someone has to ask to be recognized by the church and not simply rely on what the church decides. The Rev. Alfred Moss said that the debate is not about mission, it is about ecclesiology, which is primary to those who are opposed to the full communion agreement. Bishop DeGroot-Nesdahl said the response from those opposed is some offense that people assume they do not care about mission. The Rev. Nancy Curtis said the stories of how mission and ministry has been implemented, raises the question of "how do we use the structures made possible by the relationship of full communion to assist these congregations?" The issue of membership in general will need to be addressed in the next decade for any number of reasons. She emphasized again the need for communication to facilitate mission opportunities.

Bishop Leo Frade said there was attempt at General Convention to have planned exceptions on the ordination of women, which was defeated. In some parts of The Episcopal Church this has caused great pain, and he himself feels betrayed by the proposed to have ordinations apart from bishops. The Rev. Norman Wahl said some of the difficulty occurs because this is a drastic change in practice and to be told this needs to be changed, "strikes at the deep heart of faith." In response to a question, he recalled that the majority in his part of country is vastly opposed to the agreement. Ms. Terry Bowes asked "how can we reignite a flame of passion now that the vote is over? What will we be doing at the Churchwide Assembly to share the good stories of what is happening around the country?" The Rev. Nancy Curtis expressed appreciation to Bishop DeGroot-Nesdahl for her statement to the press following her re-election as bishop of the South Dakota Synod acknowledging her participation in this committee, while at the same time saying that she is invested in getting the bylaw related to exceptions approved as a recognition of a long tradition of the practice of ordination. To eliminate the mandatory nature of this practice will go a long way in assisting the implementation of this agreement, she asserted. She said she bases this conviction on her understanding of the Mind of the House resolution which says that a person ordained apart from a bishop would not be eligible for service in an Episcopal setting. The Rev. Grant Abbott said one of the problems related to women’s ordination was that there was no "sunset" clause as part of the guidelines that will be used to guide implementation of the bylaw, if it is approved. Is it possible to include such a clause? The Rev. Daniel Martensen responded that the guidelines call for "regular assessment" of the practice. He went on to say that there is among some of the Lutheran opponents a strategy that attempts to make so many changes that the Episcopalians will walk away from the agreement.

The Rev. Norman Wahl asked for documentation on this point. The Rev. Nancy Curtis said proponents of the formation of Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC) will oppose the bylaw. The Rev. Norman Wahl said some will never be satisfied by anything other than the elimination of the agreement because it does not address the issue of the installation of bishops into the historic episcopate. The Rev. Gregory Villalon said this proposal is motivated by pastoral care for a certain group of people so that as the two churches grow into these agreements the number seeking exceptions will diminish. He reminded the members of the committee of the guidelines that will surround the process of granting exceptions.

The Lutheran-Episcopal Coordinating Committee recessed at 3:45 p.m. and reconvened at 4:15 p.m.

Memorials from ELCA Synodical Assemblies
Chair Larson called upon the Rev. Randall R. Lee to introduce the exhibit on 2000 and 2001 ELCA Synod Memorials. Pr. Lee explained the process of bringing legislation to the floor of an ELCA Churchwide Assembly and reviewed the contents of the exhibit, which contains memorials related to the implementation of "Called to Common Mission."

Chair Larson asked what kind of conversation is current about deciding what constitutes extraordinary circumstances for granting an exception to ordination by a bishop. Bishop Andrea DeGroot-Nesdahl said it would be a matter of conscience rather than a situation in which a candidate desires to have a family member preside. Bishop Ronald Warren said that when this issue was brought up earlier it concerned emergency situations, as opposed to conscience decisions. Bishop DeGroot-Nesdahl acknowledged that the definition of "regularly" precluded all planned exceptions. Those seeking such exceptions appeal to the Lutheran Confessions. The Rev. Nancy Curtis asked how there could be a conscience consideration when the person would be ordained by a bishop who is not installed into the historic succession. Bishop DeGroot-Nesdahl responded that it is a concern about being ordained by a bishop as opposed to another pastor. Pr. Curtis reminded the group that even before adoption of "Called to Common Mission" a bishop could decide to preside at all ordinations and no one was objecting on the basis of conscience. The Rev. Norman Wahl said a candidate could have waited out the system until assigned to a bishop who would allow another person to preside. Pr. Curtis asked where the issue of conscience arises in that kind of situation. Bishop DeGoot-Nesdahl responded that a number of candidates from areas in which they were raised and returned to that area to serve. In those cases, the bishop rarely presided. She said that there has been an effort recently at "cross-fertilization" whereby candidates are being assigned to different parts of the country so the varying practices of ordination are experienced. Pr. Curtis said that conscience issues and practice issues are very different. Chair Larson said practice may suffice for a sociological explanation but freedom is the abiding theological or conscience conviction. Pr. Curtis said the conscience clause applies only to the bishop; the ordinand did not have a say anyhow, without the permission of the bishop. The Rev. Norman Wahl said it is splitting hairs to make these assertions because in the past ordinands could negotiate with the bishop. The bishop is the one whose freedom is at issue, she countered. Chair Larson said an ordinand had the right to plan an ordination with the approval of the bishop who may not be the presider.

Bishop DeGroot-Nesdahl recalled a meeting of the ministerium of the South Dakota Synod where Presiding Bishop H. George Anderson asked how many people were ordained by a bishop. Only 10 of approximately 200 persons indicated they were so ordained.

Bishop C. Christopher Epting recalled the consultation on the matter of exceptions to ordination by a bishop. He said that in his new position as the ecumenical officer of The Episcopal Church he is aware of some dis-ease in ELCA about this matter. A proposed resolution from the Diocese of New York, which was not adopted, stated that if the ELCA adopts the proposed bylaw, General Convention would be asked to declare that the tenets of "Called to Common Mission" have been broken and should be vacated. Discussion ensued on whether it is possible to understand the proposed bylaw as a way to define a small arena in which the "rule" may legitimately be broken, understanding that such a person would not be available for service in a setting of The Episcopal Church. Bishop Leo Frade asked how common the granting of exceptions would be. Bishop DeGroot-Nesdahl responded that she has ordained virtually all the candidates assigned to her synod; the granting of exceptions is likely to be low. The Rev. Norman Wahl said it was difficult to assess how great the numbers would be. Chair Larson noted how candidacy committees are in the formation of seminarians, alongside seminary faculties.

Chair Larson asked about when full communion would actually be the case, so that if the two churches are growing into full communion, as opposed to the complete realization of full communion, this may change the context of the proposed resolution of the Diocese of New York. Bishop C. Christopher Epting said both are true, "we are living in a relationship of full communion and we are on our way to full communion." The Rev. Grant Abbott called attention to the characterization of The Episcopal Church by some of the opponents to "Called to Common Mission" and said it is hard for an Episcopalian to set the record straight. "What is the Lutheran Church trying to do to correct this information and to help lay persons understand correctly the nature of the agreement and the character of The Episcopal Church?" he asked. Ms. Terry Bowes noted that this morning’s guests constantly referred to the culture and said that there are not only two ecclesial cultures but geographic cultural differences, as well. The Rev. Nancy Curtis responded that people must raise a point of order on the floor of a synodical assembly in the face of such misrepresentations.

Discussion ensued on "Since You Asked," a second edition of a question and answer document first published in 1999, and on the first draft of "In the Bond of Unity: A Commentary on ‘ Called to Common Mission,’" which will be discussed later in this meeting.

Bishop DeGroot-Nesdahl said that in the face of the all-pervading nature of this discussion she has asked herself how to lead in the face of the misperceptions. She said she hears people say "I am doing this for the sake of my grandchildren." How do you move people away from "demonization" of others when you are perceived as being the voice the bureaucracy. The Rev. Daniel Martensen said a related question is how vastly does one distribute documents so that it does not seem like an over-response. The Rev. Nancy Curtis said analogy and metaphor seems not to be helpful in the discussion of "Called to Common Mission" because people focus not only on the issue but on the analogy.

The Lutheran-Episcopal Coordinating Committee recessed for the day with Evening Prayer led by Ms. Terry Bowes at 5:30 p.m.

Tuesday, June 5, 2001
The Very Rev. Donald Brown, co-chair of the Lutheran-Episcopal Coordinating Committee, called the second plenary day meeting to order at 9:31 a.m. The Rev. Norman Wahl led Morning Prayer based on resources from the Moravian Church.
The members of the committee were escorted on a tour of Temple Square in Salt Lake City, the location of many of the major sites of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints for the purpose of learning about the mission and ministry opportunities inherent in the culture of Utah and the surrounding states.

Lunch was held at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building adjacent to Temple Square.

Discussion of Proposed Commentary on "Called to Common Mission"
Chair Brown introduced the discussion on the proposed commentary on "Called to Common Mission," tentatively titled, "In the Bond of Unity: A Commentary on ‘Called to Common Mission.’" Some of the suggestions for changes follow:

the commentary should make more references to congregations to make it more user friendly;
use more paragraphs and more white space between them and use an even more distinctive type-face for the commentary;
material on history on page three might be put in a different section labeled "history of the document";
might be helpful to "package" "Since You Asked" with the commentary because it is more focused to congregations;
Provide some case studies of what is happening or what might happen in cooperation between two congregations as a result of "Called to Common Mission." Four-sectioned document:
1. actions;
2. history [see suggested written changes by Andrea DeGroot-Nesdahl];
3. commentary;
4. case studies, titled "Living into Full Communion" [which could also include some congregational issues raised in "Since You Asked";
Each page should identify the columns as text and commentary;
Paragraph 7 commentary: By saying that the ordained ministry exists to serve, and by emphasizing the one ministry of word and sacrament, and the continued sharing in the priesthood of all believers, "Called to Common Mission" affirms that ordained ministers fulfill their particular ministries within the community of the faithful and not apart from it.
Paragraph 8, sentence 3 becomes sentence 1
Paragraph 8, sentence 2 amended: The general, historic pattern of three forms of such ministry - bishops, pastors, and deacons - remains the practice in The Episcopal Church as affirmed in the "Mind of the House Resolution," for The Episcopal Church alone. Paragraph 8, sentence 1, becomes sentence 3.
Add to end of paragraph 9: from Chris Epting
Carolyn Tanner Irish suggests a fifth section, an introduction about the purpose of creating this document that acknowledges that the road has been bumpy and has not been celebrated by everyone.
Don’t forget to add "Waterloo Agreement" to the list of actions around the world.

Authorization was given to staff (Bishop C. Christopher Epting and the Rev. Randall R. Lee), the co-chairs (the Very Rev. Donald Brown and the Rev. Duane Larson) and to the Rev. Nancy Curtis to develop the final form of the text.

Deacons and Their Ministries
Conversation ensued on the exchange of the ministry of deacons. The annual formation of diaconal ministers at the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Gettysburg, including ecumenical partners, will occur this summer. Some evidence of local exchange are occurring. The ministry staffs of the two churches have agreed to take up the conversation on how to develop the policies governing the exchange of these ministries will be taken up in the fall of 2001. The Rev. Duane Larson expressed some concern, as one of the architects of the concept of diaconal ministry in the ELCA, that it not become institutionalized too quickly lest the fullness of the definition of what this office means be curtailed. The Rev. Gregory Villalon concurred and said there are a number of in-house issues for the ELCA to sort out so the conversations that begin in the fall of 2001 will proceed slowly, and must include input from the advisory committee on diaconal ministry. Bishop C. Christopher Epting acknowledged also that the conversation about to ensue will be helpful to both churches in order to avoid the pitfalls experienced from the other. Bishop Tanner-Irish indicated that deacons in the Diocese of Utah are ordained under both national canons and diocesan canons. A discussion of "Canon 9 clergy" ensued. The Rev. Gregory Villalon said that if an ELCA congregation wanted to make use of an Episcopal deacon, that deacon would remain canonically resident in a diocese and follow the rules of the diocese. Bishop Ronald Warren made the following motion:

Moved;
Seconded;
Carried:

To encourage the ELCA Division for Ministry and the Episcopal Office for Ministry Development to continue the work that has already begun in the implementation of "Called to Common Mission," which may include the development of an "interim document" that would provide definitions of the various ministries of Word and Service (e.g. deacons, diaconal ministers, deaconesses, and associates in ministry ) in the two church bodies, pending the development of a more formal policy on the exchange of these ministries.

Significant discussion ensued on the appropriate role of the coordinating committee in relation to the appropriate legislative bodies of the two church bodies.

Press Release

Initial conversation was conducted on the press release to be prepared by the co-chairs.

Future Meeting Dates

February 4-5, 2002 -- Miami (with a joint liturgy on Sunday evening, February 3)
June 3-4, 2002 -- Berkeley (ending at noon)
February 3-4, 2003 -- Las Vegas